You: living without security happens all around me and in me, the fact is there is no security in living
a good example of this is the recent mudslide in Washington
those 24 homes represented this actual physical security that you say we need
swept away in a flash
not by evil but by nature
nature says here is what I think of your actual security
MJK: If I don’t live in a war zone I’m much more secure.
You: that is fine
I don’t have any need to change your point of view
MJK: How can you make this argument?
You: you want to believe that physical security is needed
MJK: This is an excuse for the perpetuation of an uncivil society as far as I’m concerned.
You: what is?
MJK: That there is no need for security.
You: a lack of security is uncivil?
MJK: So it’s ok for people to live without basic protections like food stamps, for example.
You: Food is a basic need. Security is an unavailable desire.
I can’t Live without food. You have to look at whether we can live without it
We can, and do, live without security, humans and other species have been doing this for a long time. We desire security but even if we actually need it, no one can really provide it. We don’t need it. Not only is it possible to live without security, it’s how we really Live.
MJK: Until you don’t have it, that’s an easy thought.
You: you don’t know anything about me
and you presume to tell me what I have?
or don’t have?
so I am a liar?
MJK: I don’t have to know a thing about you, and I don’t.
You: so what is physical security?
a house? an income?
a car? enough food?
MJK: People will never have psychological security, they don’t have that. But if they are not confused about that they will get actual security.
You: is it really this difficult?
the mind can’t see the trick?
I want to feel secure, so I create this division between “good security” and “bad security”
so that I can have the good security and still get what I want even though the world demonstrates there is no such thing
You: if I am truly living, then do I need of security? Security is just telling people they have something to be afraid of. Everyone already knows this. No one can be protected from death, it is absolutely inevitable. Even if by some enlightenment we are not afraid of our own death, we will always be afraid for our loved ones. No one wants to lose a beloved.
* * *
Anyone: “If you understand what you’re doing, you’re not learning anything.”
Me: Skinner asserts that scientific progress will inevitably demonstrate both that all control is exerted by the environment and that the ability of “autonomous man” to choose is an illusion.
Me: There is no evidence but that is beside the point, the claims dissolve into triviality or incoherence under analysis.
Raj: We choose out of our conditioning
Me: you should read it, we could maybe have a real dialogue even
You: hello Therese
Me: hi You
like how i picked out the part he would jump on and then show how Noam calls it trivial and incoherent in the next sentence?
trying to entice the bleacher creatures to get in the game
You: yes, it shows that you have read the paper
Me: Have you read Concluding Unscientific Postscript to Philosophical Fragments
Kierkegaard actually published this one under his own name.
You: I read it in college, which was a while ago
Me: It’s interesting because the argument is whether or not it is God’s will for him to go to The Deer Park a not subtle reference to where Buddha went right after he reached enlightenment.
although highly likely that many of his readers were unfamiliar with the reference
What is just Lovely about Noam’s review is that he gets down to the fundamentals of usage which is his area of expertise.
this happens all time in our attempts to dialogue after the manner which JK suggests
You: what happens all the time?
Me: people abuse the language
You: I have noticed a tendency here to just decide that words will mean whatever that person wants them to mean
Me: yes yes it comes down to “all we have our words and they are insufficient”
when you can’t agree on how to define your terms, it is hopeless
You: I was stunned at first by this it seemed so arbitrary and so reckless
Me: yes i don’t care about grammar but usage is just good manners
You: then I realized that for the most part, it isn’t really about dialogue or communication
it is about proving I am right
each person wants to prove they are right
Me: which can’t be done!
You: that isn’t dialogue
I don’t think that right and wrong should be the focus of our discussions
but that is what concerns most people
Me: this is the beauty of Noam’s review
he examines the way that Skinner writes
how he makes a big show of saying something important when he has no evidence to back it up
writing as if he is right
You: yes, and the response to criticism is typical too
there is no examination of the facts; just an attack on the one who is being critical
Me: it’s so annoying
i was just reading about the politics of immigration and how the worse thing the democrats can do is appeal to morality
even if it is true, it is not going to change anyone’s mind
Me: why do you think with all of our networkers who are well versed in JK who clearly states that certainty is possible with science and proof s but unavailable to the religious mind, why do you think they don’t believe him?
You: they read him with their own particular belief glasses on
so that for them, he says what they want to hear
you read the chat I had with MJK about security
he has decided he needs security so he divides psychological and physical, condemns the one and says the other is necessary
JK doesn’t say this
but MJK believes that JK says this
Me: to my mind, the most beautiful and important message is to come to each intercourse as if for the first time
Me: as if you had never even thought about security in your life
You: let go of what you think you know and look to see what we can find out
that is the essence of JK’s message
in my view
Me: and he does it too!
You: yes, he did that, and it was quite remarkable
Me: you can almost see his mind work “What have we got here?!”
You: it is what enabled him to keep talking about the same thing for all those years
because he was willing to look fresh each time
You: this impressed me when I talked to him
Me: and he does attract seekers
You: here was this guy who was willing to look with me, someone he barely knew, as if we were looking for the first time there was no pretension that he was simply going to “show me”
we were looking together
Me: the “seekers” have so much study in their brains
they have read the ramas and the gurus and the messiahs and the buddhas
You: but for most people, JK is just another guru, or buddha
and they create a religion from his words
Me: that wouldn’t be so bad if they could learn what he is teaching
You: MJK is a perfect example
when he starts preaching, it is so obviously belief and religion
but he believes he is explaining truth and JK
Me: yes, but not just MJK
raj has the same view
You: no, just using him as an example
Me: i think the difference between you and i is that you are quite sure in your mind that Life ends and i can’t give up the hope for justice
in the homeless community it is all they have
i can’t tell you how many times i heard the words “God’s gonna get em, don’t you never mind.”
You: ah, so to you justice is life not ending?
Me: it’s a very pleasant thought
i think about it
You: you don’t want to think that someone who is evil will live and then die and nothing is going to be done to them?
Me: i don’t believe THAT, i think if they live long enough they will get it all by themselves
You: so you do believe in punishment
i believe in judgment
god knows ive used enough bad judgment to distinguish
certainly there are going to be those who will keep that house of cards to the bitter end
You: side stepping?
judgement is all about punishment and reward
Me: yes i don’t like being a political animal
judgment to me is pure emotion
it is a priori
judgment a priori is predestination
Me: well if conscience punishes you that is a priori knowledge
it doesn’t require reason
rationalizing is almost always anticonscience
conscience functions at the most primitive level
like the sense of smell
You: the seriously evil have no conscience
so that doesn’t make any sense
so the worst among us go free of being judged or punished
Me: it does make sense in an emotional context
the seriously evil are usually looking for feelings
they are disconnected from their conscience
Me: is it funny to say they are looking for feelings?
You: you have created a convenient belief system
one that fits what you want
Me: kind of like kids who go to scary movies?
well no i really haven’t
You: it shows a lack of understanding in my view
Me: why do you think people commit vile actions?
You: there is no one reason
Me: well give me the lowdown
You: different people do things for different reasons
Me: are the reasons reasoned out?
You: a psychopath does what they feel will benefit them
Me: i guess i don’t understand what “acting out” really means
You: if I have a conscience, a sense of right and wrong
will weigh what I want against the harm it might cause
Me: im not talking about any weighing
You: if I have no conscience, then I am going to do what I think I can get away with
Me: of course
if there is money involved it is a no-brainer
sometimes sex is really violence
You: I am not sure we are even talking about the same thing
Me: but all of them are attached to the feeling you get from the success
i am talking about judgment
with enough of a payoff our judgment will be favorable … even if you’re not a psychopath
You: that doesn’t make any sense to me
Me: what part?
You: your last statement
“with enough of a payoff our judgment will be favorable even if you’re not a psychopath”
if you are examining the causes of evil then surely there must be a payoff?
a good judge is offered $100,000 to make a judgment and he takes it
You: ah, you have changed the subject
Me: using a judge when the subject is judgment as some one who puts aside his feelings for the payoff
i always thought for people “acting out” the repetition is actually like the “$100,000″
You: you started by talking about the judging of people, perhaps by a greater Being, and now you are talking about the judgments that people make
Me: i didn’t say greater being
You: no, but you were talking about people paying for their crimes
Me: i said that if we live long enough we might realize
You: now you are talking about their motivation for doing them
Me: yes, we might realize our own motives as being substandard
plus i don’t see any limit to how long our life could extend
i talked about judgment being a priori
and you laughed
because i don’t understand
maybe this is why i still think about it
You understand what?
Me: i don’t understand psychopaths
i thought about it a long time just yesterday
i dont arrive at conclusions
You: you said that the seriously evil are looking for feelings
I laughed because that is an odd assumption for you to make
when something is incongruent I will often laugh
when make leap to conclusions, I laugh
Me: well what else?
You: when they assume something, I laugh
what makes you think that the seriously evil are looking for feelings?
Me: maybe it’s just hard for me to imagine the utterly unmotivated action
You: you are assuming that only feelings are motivations
you are saying there is nothing else to motivate action
other than wanting a certain feeling
Me: yes broadly
money is a feeling
You: psychopaths are not “acting out”
adhd kids “act out”
Me: i thought “acting out” is when people do what was done to them because they are still trying to justify
You: a true psychopath doesn’t really have feelings the way you are describing them
they are motivated by a lack of feeling actually
it seems to me
acting out is about feelings that have been pent up
so a kid who is holding in a lot of hurt and frustration will act out
a psychopath is just getting away with what he or she sees that they can get away with
Other: may i laugh
You: you need permission?
yes a psychopath feels, but only in terms of themselves
Me: yes see i heard that about the lack of feeling and so it seemed to me that the extreme measures that they take to are a result of this unfeeling
You: perhaps the psychopath is the most extreme case of separation of self
to this person, there is only their self
that is all that matters
other living things are no different than rocks or inanimate objects
there is no sense of the connection
none at all
the most successful psychopaths are in business
and they make a TON of money
Me: so then it is theoretical if what they are doing is based on an unconscious desire to make the connection
You: the dysfunctional ones end up in prison
or in a shootout with the cops
no, it is not an unconscious desire to make any connection
they are not trying to connect
they have no motivation to connect to anything
they are self sufficient
Me: well if it is unconscious then it is unknown
You: ok, so you want to assume they have this unknown desire to connect
there is no evidence to support this
the evidence is to the contrary
Me: i guess my affinity with JK stems from this ability to fall back on the unknown and the uncertain
Me: you can’t judge anything by the behavior of anyone
all you can say is how it made you feel and how it made them feel
before they anyone gave it any thought
that’s the judgment
so that money itself can be a feeling
as it is usually a very STRONG feeling
as anyone can tell you
for a visceral example
of a priori knowledge
which, to my mind, is clearly a judgment
i don’t know that Life ends at death
and however long it extends i like to think that the point is to find out how to make Life better
not a greater being, but finding out for ourselves
greater being always involve a judgment day, we are surely intelligent enough to judge for ourselves
what say you?
You: you are not making sense to me
You: I don’t understand you
Me: i suppose it is because you understand people better than i do
You: I don’t know
I am just being honest with you
not comparing you to others
Me: im used to being an oddball
my mother hated me all my life
You: you talk about a priori judgment but you offer no evidence of this
you seem to rant, just say whatever comes to mind
whether it makes sense or not
Me: i do rant, but this is not one of those time, when i rant i use all caps
the evidence of a priori judgment of something IS the FEELING
you feel the goodness or badness before you ever come up with the reasons why or why not… right now, i feel attacked
You: sorry, that is no my intention, I am being honest
not claiming to be right
this is my impression
Me: more likely i was not giving you the full train of thought, you should ask about what you don’t understand
you say how terrible it is when they pick on the person instead of their ideas
I don’t grasp your ideas here
that is my point
Me: maybe Other can ask me an intelligent question
it’s like buddha said
Me: you have to speak to what people can understand
You: if it helps, Other doesn’t make much sense to me either
Me: psychopaths makes sense to you?
You: ? when I talk to them?
Me: well you explain what is going on with psychopaths at length
You: fuck me dead
I give up
Me: and you tell me what i said is just senseless
you do that
then you give up
You: you feel attacked so you attack me
that is fine
Me: at what point did you get held up?
You: just not something I am interested in
Me: why didn’t you tell me then?
You: what is the point?
You: (wanders off…)
Me: well we started off with an understanding to start FRESH
but an expert pathologist cannot explore motivation if they already learned that there is no motivation other than selfishness
that’s just the way it is folks
and im just an ignoramoose
THIS ISN’T THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE REDUCED YOUR VIEWPOINT TO ALL OF A SUDDEN I DON’T MAKE ANY SENSE when it is inconvenient to consider the possibility that you just think you’re right
they say people criticize others for their biggest faults
the fault you fault others with most is this idea that they have to be right
they have to convince others that they are right
when you have to be right your default movement is to accuse the other of “not making sense” and then wandering off
I don’t have to be right
I don’t know that I am right
I don’t care
this is just an attack on me because I don’t see that you are right
Me: you’ve done this to me several times
You: and I am not interested
I can speculate why you are doing this
but why bother?
Me: i dont even know what you think im supposed to be right about
i know im guessing
You: I have not been looking at this in terms of right and wrong
and honestly, you can play this game without me
Me: you’re the one who has a thing about people thinking they’re right
You: this is just a personal attack for personal reasons
Me: that is YOUR favorite criticism
it’s YOUR favorite personal attaack
you say: “There’s no use talking to him, he always thinks he’s right.”
You: you are right, of course
and I am done therese
you can continue without me
Me: all i have said is that you tell me: “YOU DON”T MAKE SENSE.”
and then you don’t tell me when i suddenly didn’t make sense
or what in particular is senseless
just sorry, you’re not making sense…
first time, i took it
second time, i didn’t like it
this time, im angry
and im calling you out on your shit
although to be fair
it’s probably true
it’s way over your head
you can’t help it
Other: it is fear,we feel cornered when we have no answers and dont understand..
Me: easier just to dismiss the whole thing as senseless
then you don’t have to confront your fears
You: this is bullshit
I did tell you
more than once
you are not listening
you just want to find fault
so fuck off
Me: what is senseless about Other?
while you’re paying attentiong
You: fuck off
we are done
You: you are the one who is afraid
I offered to listen and now you are running
Me: so we’re not done
Other: we can’t let go of the mystical nonsense..we go on and on with endless avenues and when we reach a dead end we dont let go and we back in the whirlpool of the mystical world..
Me: where did that come from?
judgment is not mystical
Other: that is all afterwards..
Me: the only mystery is how far does Life extend in which we have the ability to use our judgment
thanks for listening Other
Other: mysticism: hindhuism …to k-ism
Me: i prefer ish to ism
Other: we go round in that pool and when it is time to fall out we run in back so fast..
Me: i think we should make commitments to people not ideas
Other: ok i love Me and You so very much, forget your mother
Me: well she LIKES me now!
Other: ok i save my love then and wait for the needy
Me: You and i talk good talk
only sometimes she bails on me and calls me senseless
which is insulting
she called you senseless too, when did she hit the wall with you?
Other: she is direct that’s all, and i think we come here to understand other people..in the beginning you sounded very very strange to me you know..
you talk in stories
Me: there is no doubt
Other: but have a mahabharata mind
Me: going to g for mahabharata
the storys that stay with you and mean something even if you don’t know why
they hold onto us
Other: am off dear c u
Me: have a lovely weekend
If a physical scientist were to assure us that we need not concern ourselves over the world’s sources of energy because he has demonstrated in his laboratory that windmills will surely suffice for all future human needs, he would be expected to produce some evidence.
One waits in vain for psychologists to make clear to the general public the actual limits of what is known.