Security, How Long is Life? Judgment? and Having To Be Right

30 Mar

You:  living without security happens all around me and in me, the fact is there is no security in living

a good example of this is the recent mudslide in Washington
those 24 homes represented this actual physical security that you say we need
swept away in a flash
not by evil but by nature
nature says here is what I think of your actual security

MJK:  If I don’t live in a war zone I’m much more secure.

You:  that is fine
I don’t have any need to change your point of view

MJK:  How can you make this argument?

You:  you want to believe that physical security is needed
ok

MJK:  This is an excuse for the perpetuation of an uncivil society as far as I’m concerned.

You:  what is?

MJK:  That there is no need for security.

You:  a lack of security is uncivil?

MJK:  So it’s ok for people to live without basic protections like food stamps, for example.

You:  Food is a basic need.  Security is an unavailable desire.
I can’t Live without food.  You have to look at whether we can live without it
We can, and do, live without security, humans and other species have been doing this for a long time.  We desire security but even if we actually need it, no one can really provide it.  We don’t need it.  Not only is it possible to live without security, it’s how we really Live.

MJK:  Until you don’t have it, that’s an easy thought.

You:  you don’t know anything about me
and you presume to tell me what I have?
or don’t have?
so I am a liar?

MJK:  I don’t have to know a thing about you, and I don’t.

You:  so what is physical security?
a house? an income?
a car? enough food?

MJK:  People will never have psychological security, they don’t have that.  But if they are not confused about that they will get actual security.

You:  is it really this difficult?
the mind can’t see the trick?
I want to feel secure, so I create this division between “good security” and “bad security”
so that I can have the good security and still get what I want even though the world demonstrates there is no such thing

You:  if I am truly living, then do I need of security?  Security is just telling people they have something to be afraid of.  Everyone already knows this.  No one can be protected from death, it is absolutely inevitable.  Even if by some enlightenment we are not afraid of our own death, we will always be afraid for our loved ones.  No one wants to lose a beloved.

 

 *   *   *

Anyone:  “If you understand what you’re doing, you’re not learning anything.”

Me:  Skinner asserts that scientific progress will inevitably demonstrate both that all control is exerted by the environment and that the ability of “autonomous man” to choose is an illusion.

Raj: Yes…

Me:  There is no evidence but that is beside the point, the claims dissolve into triviality or incoherence under analysis.

Raj: We choose out of our conditioning

Me:  you should read it, we could maybe have a real dialogue even

You:  hello Therese

Raj: Ok

Me:  hi You

like how i picked out the part he would jump on and then show how Noam calls it trivial and incoherent in the next sentence?

trying to entice the bleacher creatures to get in the game 

You:  yes, it shows that you have read the paper

Me:  Have you read Concluding Unscientific Postscript to Philosophical Fragments

Kierkegaard actually published this one under his own name.

You:  I read it in college, which was a while ago

Me:  It’s interesting because the argument is whether or not it is God’s will for him to go to The Deer Park a not subtle reference to where Buddha went right after he reached enlightenment.

although highly likely that many of his readers were unfamiliar with the reference

What is just Lovely about Noam’s review is that he gets down to the fundamentals of usage which is his area of expertise.

this happens all time in our attempts to dialogue after the manner which JK suggests

You:  what happens all the time?

Me:  people abuse the language

You:  I have noticed a tendency here to just decide that words will mean whatever that person wants them to mean

Me:  yes yes it comes down to “all we have our words and they are insufficient”

when you can’t agree on how to define your terms, it is hopeless

You:  I was stunned at first by this it seemed so arbitrary and so reckless

Me:  yes i don’t care about grammar but usage is just good manners

You:  then I realized that for the most part, it isn’t really about dialogue or communication

it is about proving I am right

each person wants to prove they are right

Me:  which can’t be done!

You:  that isn’t dialogue

I don’t think that right and wrong should be the focus of our discussions

but that is what concerns most people

Me:  this is the beauty of Noam’s review

he examines the way that Skinner writes

how he makes a big show of saying something important when he has no evidence to back it up

writing as if he is right

as if

You:  yes, and the response to criticism is typical too

there is no examination of the facts; just an attack on the one who is being critical

Me:  it’s so annoying

i was just reading about the politics of immigration and how the worse thing the democrats can do is appeal to morality

even if it is true, it is not going to change anyone’s mind

Me:  why do you think with all of our networkers who are well versed in JK who clearly states that certainty is possible with science and proof s but unavailable to the religious mind, why do you think they don’t believe him?

You:  they read him with their own particular belief glasses on

so that for them, he says what they want to hear

you read the chat I had with MJK about security

he has decided he needs security so he divides psychological and physical, condemns the one and says the other is necessary

JK doesn’t say this

but MJK believes that JK says this

Me:  to my mind, the most beautiful and important message is to come to each intercourse as if for the first time 

You:  YES!

Me:  as if you had never even thought about security in your life

You:  let go of what you think you know and look to see what we can find out

that is the essence of JK’s message

in my view

Me:  and he does it too!

You:  yes, he did that, and it was quite remarkable

Me:  you can almost see his mind work “What have we got here?!”

You:  it is what enabled him to keep talking about the same thing for all those years

because he was willing to look fresh each time

You:  this impressed me when I talked to him

Me:  and he does attract seekers

You:  here was this guy who was willing to look with me, someone he barely knew, as if we were looking for the first time  there was no pretension that he was simply going to “show me”

we were looking together

Me:  the “seekers” have so much study in their brains

they have read the ramas and the gurus and the messiahs and the buddhas

You:  but for most people, JK is just another guru, or buddha

and they create a religion from his words

Me:  that wouldn’t be so bad if they could learn what he is teaching

You:  MJK is a perfect example

when he starts preaching, it is so obviously belief and religion

but he believes he is explaining truth and JK

Me:  yes, but not just MJK

raj has the same view

You:  no, just using him as an example

Me:  i think the difference between you and i is that you are quite sure in your mind that Life ends and i can’t give up the hope for justice

in the homeless community it is all they have

i can’t tell you how many times i heard the words “God’s gonna get em, don’t you never mind.”

You:  ah, so to you justice is life not ending?

Me:  it’s a very pleasant thought

i think about it

You: you don’t want to think that someone who is evil will live and then die and nothing is going to be done to them?

Me: i don’t believe THAT, i think if they live long enough they will get it all by themselves

You: so you do believe in punishment

Me: no

i believe in judgment

god knows ive used enough bad judgment to distinguish

certainly there are going to be those who will keep that house of cards to the bitter end

You:  side stepping?

judgement is all about punishment and reward

Me:  yes i don’t like being a political animal

judgment to me is pure emotion

it is a priori

You: ?

judgment a priori is predestination

Me: well if conscience punishes you that is a priori knowledge

it doesn’t require reason

rationalizing is almost always anticonscience

conscience functions at the most primitive level

like the sense of smell

You: the seriously evil have no conscience

so that doesn’t make any sense

so the worst among us go free of being judged or punished

Me: it does make sense in an emotional context

the seriously evil are usually looking for feelings

they are disconnected from their conscience

You:  lol

Me:  is it funny to say they are looking for feelings?

You:  you have created a convenient belief system

one that fits what you want

Me: kind of like kids who go to scary movies?

well no i really haven’t

You: it shows a lack of understanding in my view

Me: why do you think people commit vile actions?

You: there is no one reason

Me: well give me the lowdown

You: different people do things for different reasons

Me: are the reasons reasoned out?

You: a psychopath does what they feel will benefit them

Me: i guess i don’t understand what “acting out” really means

You: if I have a conscience, a sense of right and wrong

 will weigh what I want against the harm it might cause

Me: im not talking about any weighing

You: if I have no conscience, then I am going to do what I think I can get away with

Me: of course

if there is money involved it is a no-brainer

sometimes sex is really violence 

You:  I am not sure we are even talking about the same thing

Me:  but all of them are attached to the feeling you get from the success

i am talking about judgment

with enough of a payoff our judgment will be favorable … even if you’re not a psychopath

You: that doesn’t make any sense to me

Me: what part?

You: your last statement

“with enough of a payoff our judgment will be favorable even if you’re not a psychopath”

Me

if you are examining the causes of evil then surely there must be a payoff?

a good judge is offered $100,000 to make a judgment and he takes it

You: ah, you have changed the subject

Me:  using a judge when the subject is judgment as some one who puts aside his feelings for the payoff 

i always thought for people “acting out” the repetition is actually like the “$100,000″

You:  you started by talking about the judging of people, perhaps by a greater Being, and now you are talking about the judgments that people make

Me: i didn’t say greater being

You: no, but you were talking about people paying for their crimes

Me: i said that if we live long enough we might realize

You: now you are talking about their motivation for doing them

Me: yes, we might realize our own motives as being substandard 

plus i don’t see any limit to how long our life could extend

i talked about judgment being a priori

and you laughed 

because i don’t understand 

maybe this is why i still think about it

You   understand what?

Me: i don’t understand psychopaths

i thought about it a long time just yesterday

i dont arrive at conclusions

just wonder

You: you said that the seriously evil are looking for feelings

I laughed because that is an odd assumption for you to make

when something is incongruent I will often laugh

when make leap to conclusions, I laugh

Me: well what else?

You: when they assume something, I laugh

what makes you think that the seriously evil are looking for feelings?

Me: maybe it’s just hard for me to imagine the utterly unmotivated action

You: you are assuming that only feelings are motivations

you are saying there is nothing else to motivate action

other than wanting a certain feeling

Me: yes broadly

money is a feeling

You: psychopaths are not “acting out”

adhd kids “act out”

Me: i thought “acting out” is when people do what was done to them because they are still trying to justify

explain

You:  a true psychopath doesn’t really have feelings the way you are describing them

they are motivated by a lack of feeling actually

it seems to me

acting out is about feelings that have been pent up

so a kid who is holding in a lot of hurt and frustration will act out

a psychopath is just getting away with what he or she sees that they can get away with 

Other:  may i laugh

You: you need permission?

yes a psychopath feels, but only in terms of themselves

Me: yes see i heard that about the lack of feeling and so it seemed to me that the extreme measures that they take to are a result of this unfeeling

You: perhaps the psychopath is the most extreme case of separation of self

to this person, there is only their self

that is all that matters

other living things are no different than rocks or inanimate objects

there is no sense of the connection

none at all

the most successful psychopaths are in business

and entertainment

and they make a TON of money

Me: so then it is theoretical if what they are doing is based on an unconscious desire to make the connection

You: the dysfunctional ones end up in prison

or in a shootout with the cops

no, it is not an unconscious desire to make any connection

they are not trying to connect

they have no motivation to connect to anything

they are self sufficient

Me: well if it is unconscious then it is unknown

by definition

You: ok, so you want to assume they have this unknown desire to connect

there is no evidence to support this

the evidence is to the contrary

Me: i guess my affinity with JK stems from this ability to fall back on the unknown and the uncertain

You: ok…

Me: you can’t judge anything by the behavior of anyone

all you can say is how it made you feel and how it made them feel

a priori

before they anyone gave it any thought

that’s the judgment

the feeling

broadly interpreted

so that money itself can be a feeling

as it is usually a very STRONG feeling

as anyone can tell you

for a visceral example

of a priori knowledge

which, to my mind, is clearly a judgment

money good!

in SUMMATION

i don’t know that Life ends at death

and however long it extends i like to think that the point is to find out how to make Life better

not a greater being, but finding out for ourselves

greater being always involve a judgment day, we are surely intelligent enough to judge for ourselves

what say you?

You: you are not making sense to me

Me: wow

You: I don’t understand you

Me: i suppose it is because you understand people better than i do

You: I don’t know

I am just being honest with you

not comparing you to others

Me: im used to being an oddball

my mother hated me all my life

You: you talk about a priori judgment but you offer no evidence of this

you seem to rant,  just say whatever comes to mind

whether it makes sense or not

Me: i do rant, but this is not one of those time, when i rant i use all caps

the evidence of a priori judgment of something IS the FEELING 
you feel the goodness or badness before you ever come up with the reasons why or why not…  right now, i feel attacked 

You:  sorry, that is no my intention, I am being honest

not claiming to be right

this is my impression

Me:  more likely i was not giving you the full train of thought, you should ask about what you don’t understand

you say how terrible it is when they pick on the person instead of their ideas

You:  *not

I don’t grasp your ideas here

that is my point

Me: maybe Other can ask me an intelligent question

it’s like buddha said

You: ok…

Me: you have to speak to what people can understand

You: if it helps, Other doesn’t make much sense to me either

Me: psychopaths makes sense to you?

You: ? when I talk to them?

Me: well you explain what is going on with psychopaths at length

You: fuck me dead

I give up

Me: and you tell me what i said is just senseless

you do that

then you give up

You: you feel attacked so you attack me

that is fine

Me: at what point did you get held up?

You: just not something I am interested in

Me: why didn’t you tell me then?

You: what is the point?

Me: wait

You: (wanders off…)

Me: well we started off with an understanding to start FRESH

but an expert pathologist cannot explore motivation if they already learned that there is no motivation other than selfishness

that’s just the way it is folks

and im just an ignoramoose

THIS ISN’T THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE REDUCED YOUR VIEWPOINT TO ALL OF A SUDDEN I DON’T MAKE ANY SENSE when it is inconvenient to consider the possibility that you just think you’re right

they say people criticize others for their biggest faults

the fault you fault others with most is this idea that they have to be right

they have to convince others that they are right

when you have to be right your default movement is to accuse the other of “not making sense” and then wandering off

You: sigh…

I don’t have to be right

I don’t know that I am right

I don’t care

this is just an attack on me because I don’t see that you are right

Me: you’ve done this to me several times

You:  and I am not interested

I can speculate why you are doing this

but why bother?

Me: i dont even know what you think im supposed to be right about

im guessing

i know im guessing

You: I have not been looking at this in terms of right and wrong

you have

and honestly, you can play this game without me

Me: you’re the one who has a thing about people thinking they’re right

not me

You: this is just a personal attack for personal reasons

Me: that is YOUR favorite criticism

it’s YOUR favorite personal attaack

you say: “There’s no use talking to him, he always thinks he’s right.”

You: you are right, of course

and I am done therese

you can continue without me

Me: all i have said is that you tell me: “YOU DON”T MAKE SENSE.”

and then you don’t tell me when i suddenly didn’t make sense

or how

or why

or what in particular is senseless

just sorry, you’re not making sense…

see ya

first time, i took it

second time, i didn’t like it

this time, im angry

and im calling you out on your shit

although to be fair

it’s probably true

it’s way over your head

you can’t help it

Other:  it is fear,we feel cornered when we have no answers and dont understand..

Me: easier just to dismiss the whole thing as senseless

then you don’t have to confront your fears

You: this is bullshit 

I did tell you

more than once

you are not listening

you just want to find fault  

so fuck off

Me: what is senseless about Other?

while you’re paying attentiong

You: fuck off

we are done

Me: haha

You: you are the one who is afraid

I offered to listen and now you are running

so run

Me: so we’re not done

Other:  we can’t let go of the mystical nonsense..we go on and on with endless avenues and when we reach a dead end we dont let go and we back in the whirlpool of the mystical world..

Me: where did that come from?

judgment is not mystical

it’s logical

it’s sensible

Other: that is all afterwards..

Me: the only mystery is how far does Life extend in which we have the ability to use our judgment

thanks for listening Other

Other: mysticism: hindhuism …to k-ism

Me: i prefer ish to ism

Other: we go round in that pool and when it is time to fall out we run in back so fast..

Me: i think we should make commitments to people not ideas

Other: ok i love Me and You so very much, forget your mother

Me: well she LIKES me now!

Other: ok i save my love then and wait for the needy

Me: You and i talk good talk

only sometimes she bails on me and calls me senseless

which is insulting

she called you senseless too, when did she hit the wall with you?

Other: she is direct that’s all, and i think we come here to understand other people..in the beginning you sounded very very strange to me you know..

you talk in stories

Me: there is no doubt

Other: but have a mahabharata mind

Me: going to g for mahabharata

the storys that stay with you and mean something even if you don’t know why

they hold onto us

Other: am off dear c u

Me: have a lovely weekend

If a physical scientist were to assure us that we need not concern ourselves over the world’s sources of energy because he has demonstrated in his laboratory that windmills will surely suffice for all future human needs, he would be expected to produce some evidence.

One waits in vain for psychologists to make clear to the general public the actual limits of what is known.

 

Awareness of Insight Brings Attention

3 Feb

http://www.kfa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3091  TEXT 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFNDl83W67U  DIALOGUE

This is a dialogue exploring the nature of thought.    

#1 sexy pic ever

1 Feb
i do!

bigDAY

Patrick Brunty

1 Feb

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Patrickbronte.jpg


patrickBRONTE

he took his irish name from the irish leader of her majesty’s redcoats, the duke of bronte, better known as Admiral Nelson.

The Catholic Question

1 Feb

Daniel O’Connell (6 August 1775 – 15 May 1847), often referred to as The Liberator[1] or The Emancipator,[2] was an Irish political leader in the first half of the 19th century. He campaigned for Catholic Emancipation—including the right for Catholics to sit in the Westminster Parliament, denied for over 100 years—and repeal of the Act of Union which combined Great Britain and Ireland.danielOconNELL

Quote

Modern times…

24 Jan

Modern times find themselves with an immense system of institutions, established facts, accredited dogmas, customs, rules, which have come to them from times not modern. In this system their life has to be carried forward; yet they have a sense that this system is not of their own creation, that it by no means corresponds exactly with the wants of their actual life, that, for them, it is customary, not rational. The awakening of this sense is the awakening of the modern spirit.

a quote from the New York Review of Books author, Tim Parks quoting Thomas Hardy copying a quote of Heinrich Heine

The subject is authors changing their storys.

From there I found an amazing critic who writing about Jonathan Foer who as a miracle of nature can withstand any amount of criticism. Comparing him to Phillip Roth is somewhat of joke since he is so obviously superior in so many literary ways anyone who is smart enough to know the parts of speech cannot help but be jealous that they haven’t the energy to be the kind of virtuouso they have the temerity to criticize for doing what they wish they had

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/jan/23/changing-our-stories/?insrc=wbll

Image

Patianne Okamoto Doyle

8 Jan

Patricia Okamoto Doyle

this is me

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